help us continue to produce this material. For Jordan partisans, the Bulls' 6-0 record in Finals series is indisputable proof of his superiority. The effect of Jordans game was so profound that the league changed its rules to make the games more enjoyable. The top three point scorers of all time are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone and Kobe Bryant, respectively. Don't be the person yelling "six rings" with no backup plan. For those who witnessed Jordan's excellence over the course of two three-peats with the Bulls, itreinforced the belief that he is the greatest player to ever touch the court. As always, he was a physical specimen, but he was a far cry from his prime when he averaged 18.2 points and 12.9 rebounds from 1992 through 1995 for Atlanta and Miami. The debate rages on. The Jordan vs. LeBron debate even rages among former NBA players -- and the answer isn't divided as cleanly along generational lines as you might think. (Greatest of All Time). Take a closer look at some of the impactful activations hosted by the Kings during Black History Month. Heres why both legends can credibly claim to be the greatest. The answer to that is very tough to come upon and will likely be unknown for a long time. Compare player statistics for: Jordan Greer is an NBA content producer for The Sporting News. The only time Michael and LeBron did it the same was when they had lanes to the basket, Johnson said with a laugh. AST% since 1964-65. Every time Lebron wins a championship ring, he is compared to Jordan more. If James missed from a particular spot early on, Christie would try to steer him back there as the game unfolded. That was Michael Jordan every night.. Its pretty cool. Here are Jordan and James, in their own words, talking about each other over nearly two decades. If he got a half-step of separation, he could slice into the paint for acrobatic layups. Jordan fanshave championships in their back pockets. LeBron James and Michael Jordan are always the two players that headline "LeBron James does have this going for him. He's a better all-around player than Michael and them. He has more skills than Michael. He's a point guard, he's a better passer It's the never-ending debate among today's NBA fans: Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James. The LeBron James kindergarten photo controversy. MP and PER since 1951-52. source for the material. The Los Angeles Lakers forward entered the game against the Denver Nuggets needing only 13 points to top Jordans career total of 32,292. Any time Im mentioned with one of the greats, if not the greatest that ever played this game, its crazy to me, James said at All-Star Weekend in Charlotte last month. The first time Durant averaged 30 points or more in a season was in 2009-10 in his age-21 season. Malone had 43 double-doubles while leading Utah to 55 victories, with no one else on the roster averaging more than 14.1 points. And hes aged gracefully by becoming a much more effective and prolific outside shooter. LeBron James passes Michael Jordan in career field goals James now trails Wilt (12,681) for No. most points scored by a player in their 20th season, LeBron James will be GOAT over Michael Jordan once he gets NBA's scoring record, says Chandler Parsons. LeBron vs. MJ: The GOAT debate is different now, At minimum, it's a debate now. The two are very arrogant and think very highly of themselves. Michael Jordan vs. LeBron James: Regular season stats Provided by Sporting News Jordan is superior in the scoring department, but James grabs rebounds The two are known to have gotten into multiple disagreements between which of the two are the best. Its mind-blowing., While his career average of 27.1 points per game ranks fifth all-time, Zodiac sign: Aquarius. It also gave him the bragging rights of five firsts and two seconds on this scoring-by-age chart. Most people know that Lebron James and Stephen Curry play in a dissimilar position, style of playing, careers and so on. TOV and ORtg since 1977-78. Bowen recalled how Jordan would bend into a Crouching Tiger stance as defenders approached, preparing to burst into a move or shot. This is the big one regardless of age, the season after which if Chamberlain had been hitting free agency the Philadelphia Warriors owner would have skipped contract formalities and simply called him partner. How would you pay someone today who averaged 50 points, almost 26 rebounds and 48.5 minutes? While arguments can be (and have been) made for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Kobe Bryant, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell and other NBA greats, the modern debate over who is the greatest since the NBA began has been boiled down to MJ vs. LeBron. LeBron did win two Finals with the Miami Heat and one with his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers, but he has not been able to deliver in his other Finals appearances. Makes it hard to guard someone that big and athletic, while on the other hand Kobe scores so smoothly off the pull up of post up game and so more, Lebron James won 2 rings for winning the championship. Not only dont players lead the league in scoring (or nearly so) at 37, they dont get close to averaging 30. Ive failed over and over again in my life and that is why I succeed (MJ). Both own many companies and are endorsed by big-name brands like McDonalds, Nike, Coca-Cola, and Gatorade. But what do LeBron's and MJ's overall Finals track records really tell us about the choice between them as the greatest of all time? LeBron has put up some unheard of and unthinkable numbers, while leading a team in 2007 to the National Basketball Association finals that had no other star players on the roster. Per 36 minutes this season, his 15.2 scoring wasnt much off his 19.4 pro-rated rate nine years earlier. Two months out from his 38th birthday, 19 days since setting the NBA's all-time scoring record and a week from a record-tying 19th All-Star appearance, LeBron James is still giving Father Time a game for the ages. If anyone or anything gets in the way of their success they are quick to dispose of the problem. Doncic was on his way in his second season, posting his largest average to date. It's all about which category you choose when it comes to advanced statistics. Most of the players who criticize LeBron for passing instead of shooting, especially when its time to take the last shot, are speaking from their own abilities, not his. Data runs from 1946-47 to present I wouldnt change LeBrons approach at all.. Kevin has a very calm and relaxed attitude in games. One reason is because of Jordans NBA finals stats. NEW: Sample Searches for learning more about the power and flexibility of Stathead. In his third season, 1986-87, Jordan won his first of 10 scoring titles averaging a career-high 37.1 points per game, shooting 27.8 times per game and using 38.8 percent of his teams possessions. After NBA legend Isiah Thomas says he'd take LeBron James over Michael Jordan, the SportsNation crew weighs in on the classic debate. That edges out Carmelo Anthonys 21.0 and LeBrons 20.9, both in their 2003-04 rookie seasons. Michael with no doubt left the NBA as one of the greatest players to ever play the game of basketball. Baylor scored 34.0 at 28 in 1962-63 and Bernard King put up 32.9 per game for the Knicks in 1984-85. So for the record, youve got MJ, then Kobe, then LeBron. Michael Jordan has 6 rings while LeBron has 3 rings. Carters improbably long career faded not into the sunset but into the COVID-19 shutdown. All rights reserved. So theoretically. He was listed on the Most Hated Persons n America in 2010. The harsh debate has gone on ever since Lebrons rookie season in 2004 when people started comparing him to Jordan. James averaged 27.2 as a 20-year-old NBA sophomore. VORP and Win Shares favor James, but PER and Box Plus/Minus go to Jordan. This essay will highlight the life and career of Lebron James. James had a clear-cut advantage, with Jordan having averaged 22.9PPG, 5.7RPG and 5.2APG on 41.6% shooting, however, many fans took issue with the comparison. The better player of the two is, Jordan. Michael Jordan is widely considered as the greatest basketball player of all time, however in LeBron James there is an individual who can claim to challenge him for J Irving are just a few of those with the careers to back this title. WebEvery time Lebron wins a championship ring, he is compared to Jordan more. MJ attends the 2022 NBA All-Star Game at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse in Cleveland, Ohio. Full name: Michael Jeffrey Jordan. After 15 years in the NBA, Jordan finished his career with 5,633 career assists, while after only 13 years in the. The gap in total numbers will widen as long as James stays healthy, and he doesn't appear to be slowing down at age 38. LeBron vs. Jordan. "More Than an Athlete" is an eight-episode series that examines the various stages and moments of LeBron James' journey from basketball prodigy to global sports icon, businessman and philanthropist through the lens of the unique bonds of friendship and partnership that forged among four men -- James, Maverick Carter, Randy Mims and Rich Paul -- over more than two decades. There's a very good chance that James blows by 40,000 career points. Lebron James and Michael Jordan are the greatest legends of their times because they have the most stats, the most rings, and the most money. Abdul-Jabbar had averaged 17.5 points at age 39 but that still was a 20-point rate pro-rated to 36 minutes. The debate is most often between LeBron James and Michael Jordan, though Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has some backers, too. Winning a fourth NBA title and leading a third team to a championship might be the pinnacle of his basketball career, but in life, at 35, James is just getting started. The Warriors dominated the series, winning four games to two. Michael Jordan is still considered the greatest basketball player of all time. James highest scoring average to date came in his age-21 season, when he finished third behind Bryant (35.4) and Allen Iverson (33.0). At 34 and with three more seasons remaining on his current contract, James will next take aim at the three players ahead of him on the scoring list: Kobe Bryant (33,643 points), Karl Malone (36,928) and all-time leader Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (38,387). Jordan and Lebron, Mike and the King, have been exalted above all other players, repeatedly for their superior play and championship drive. Bucks: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, Grizzlies vs. This shows us that Jordan was dominating the league, while other players were just as dominate as Kobe was. A lot of it was ego. Then, Id have him give it to Jordan and let Jordan go to work.. WebLatest on Los Angeles Lakers small forward LeBron James including news, stats, videos, highlights and more on ESPN 34.4: 73.5: 7.5: 7.3: 0.8: 1.5: 1.8: 3.5: 27.2: Recent Games. Daring James to shoot proved effective for stretches because it caused James to overthink. LeBron has much competition with all the new all these new talents with so much potential. With a film crew following them all season, "the last dance," as coach Phil Jackson called it, would be shadowed by tension and an overwhelming sense that their storied run was coming to an end. In the latest episode of "More Than An Athlete," LeBron James says his historic 2016 NBA Finals win made him the greatest player ever. Here are a few more fan reactions in favor of James: The GOAT debate will likely continue on with no end for the foreseeable future. Barry averaged 30.6 in 1974-75 and led an ensemble Golden State team to the NBA championship, but finished a dubious fourth in MVP voting behind Bob McAdoo, Dave Cowens and Elvin Hayes back when players voted for the award. Michael Jordan was six and zero in the National Basketball Association finals, but he did not have the productivity like LeBron James did. They are the most popular players of their time, maybe the most popular in history. One of a kind. Everything we did, we had to bet, Johnson recalled. 28.2 Player Efficiency Rating (PER) 28.6, 33.9 Value Over Replacement (VORP) 24.7. Six championships. There are many factors that influence this decision whether it be their raw stats or their championship rings. Here's a closer look at where the GOAT debate stands On a per-game basis, Jordan is superior in the scoring department, but James grabsrebounds and dishesout assists at a higher rate. (6:40). Each player only had one year to get this award, and Jordan was the one to get the rookie of the year (Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan Comparison). As stated by ESPN.com (2016) Golden State Warriors star Stephen Curry is the reigning two-time MVP and a reigning NBA champion, but he has no interest in whether he or Cleveland's LeBron James is considered the "face of the NBA, Curry says. This prompted StatMuse to put out a graphic comparing James stats to NBA legend Michael Jordans stats in his age-38 season with Washington. Both players had long, high-scoring careers: Malone retired at 40, Abdul-Jabbar at 42. See All. Note: Because some players birthdays fall during the NBA season, we are going with the age XX year as determined by Basketball-Reference.com. The top three point scorers LeBron James just passed Michael Jordan on the NBAs career scoring list despite LeBron considering himself more playmaker than scorer. By which point his son Bronny James might be chasing the standards at the young end of this list. Since Jordan was a guard, one would think that Jordan would have more assists, but that is not the case. The only question now is, Who is the best, He has been to the NBA Finals six times and all six times he and the Chicago Bulls were world champions. All logos are the trademark & property of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC. So, who would you pick? The 7-foot-1 Hall of Fame center destroyed rims, glass backboards and entire baskets on multiple occasions throughout his career.Michael Jordan is already eternalized in silhouette. Data runs from 1946-47 to present unless otherwise noted. Barton joins the Raptors after he was waived by the Wizards on Feb. 21. At 40, his playing time was below 30 minutes nightly and he was getting up only 11.3 shots, about half what he averaged in his 20s. WNBA all-time (since 1997) unless otherwise noted. But what he did in his 15th set the standard for 35-year-olds. Michael Jordan averaged 30.1 points per game over his career the highest in NBA history. This all of course culminated in a GOAT debate. Percentage of total points scored from three-pointers, two-pointers and. Remember when LeBron scored 25 straight points? Cassell asked, referring to a 2007 playoff game between Jamess Cavaliers and the Pistons. They are both are Hall of Famers, with a combined eight championship rings together and counting. Didnt matter much, though, given the Lakers other weapons he got his sixth championship and L.A. earned its fifth of the decade. There were the Jordan Rules, but theres no LeBron Rules because you cant be that physical anymore, said Los Angeles Clippers assistant coach Sam Cassell, a strong-minded point guard who won two titles with the Houston Rockets during a playing career that spanned from 1993 to 2008. We were trying to kill Michael Jordan and he would just get up and make his free throws.. Wilt Chamberlain, 1960-61 38.4 ppg. The way Michael scored the basketball wasnt always good for his team. Will LeBron James become the all-time scoring leader? The two have had amazing careers and are easily the top two to ever play the game. Source: Getty Images. RotoWire considers the best player values in Yahoo fantasy leagues for Tuesday night's 10 game slate. Michael Jordan says he takes the comparison between him and LeBron James with a grain of salt because they played in different eras. LeBron James and Stephen Curry have put up ageless scoring numbers. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan: How their, Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window), Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Reddit (Opens in new window), LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan: How their careers compare, LeBron James might miss weeks, but Lakers say its no excuse in playoff chase, Lakers pile up turnovers in loss to Ja Morant, Grizzlies, Report: Lakers LeBron James could miss weeks with foot injury. They both managed to have a killer mentality where winning was the number one priority, and health was just a second thought. James did it last season and again this season. This is true because of his team-player mentality, his ability to carry a team, and his raw physical and athletic capabilities. This year he may see his first ring. James wins the longevity argument (with anyone), still playing at an All-NBA level and averaging 30 points per game in his 20th season with clear plans to play at least a few more. However, Jordan was not only a basketball player, but someone who influenced the American culture and society. That's not a smart way to argue against him. Lakers President Magic Johnson, who faced Jordan in the 1991 NBA Finals and signed James as a free agent last summer, said that the two greats scored in different ways, but shared a willingness to spend hours fine-tuning their games. Before coming to The Post, he was Deputy Director of Data Visualization at the Los Angeles Times and an alum of the L.A. Times Data Desk. The answer to that is very tough to come upon and will likely be unknown for a long time. Now the question Im gonna answer is who is better between Jordan and Kareem. From there, James would have to play several more seasons to score the more than 3,000 points it would take to get within striking distance of Malone and Abdul-Jabbar. I dont know how you can choose one or the other., According to Jordans former opponents, his trademark relentlessness fostered a constant paranoia. He played only 48 games while adding 18.6 rebounds and 4.6 assists. If youre looking for legends, this is a tier that has M.J. Rockets: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, Nets vs. Knicks: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, 76ers vs. Heat: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, Cavaliers vs. Celtics: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, Bulls vs. Pistons: Start time, where to watch, what's the latest, Your California Privacy Rights/Privacy Policy. ESPN.com once had an analytical piece headlined: Is LeBron breaking the aging curve? It was posted in December 2017. He averaged 31.2 points in a career-high 42 minutes nightly. That was too young for LeBron James, for Dwight Howard, for Amare Stoudemire. Kobe had forty-two points in the first half; moreover, wanted to put on a show that night and did not hesitate to do so. Id put him near 50, said Smith, adding that Jordan could have played for 20 seasons if he absorbed less contact throughout his career. While both players are known for tenacious defense on the wing, Jordan finished first in the league in steals three times in his career. If you are having difficulty accessing any content on this website, please visit our Accessibility page. Second to the Dippers bar-setter, Michael Jordan averaged 35.0 points in 1987-88. No other non-center ever stonewalled the aging process like Carter. When Lebron James went to Miami it is was incredible, when Michael Jordan was on the Bulls they were unstoppable, there always been a comparison between the two. He had to have something on the line because that drove him.. Their names are all over the NBA record books in just about every category. On the defensive end, he would pounce on ballhandlers, aggressively double the post and jet into passing lanes for steals. That scoring boom has left Jordans former defenders wondering how many points he might score in todays NBA. 3, chasing Kareem at the top LeBron James and champion Lakers join NBA TV after Game 6 win If LeBron James is not better than Michael Jordan he is just as good because of his career accomplishments, his statistical numbers, as well, Comparison Of Michael Jordan And Lebron James, Who is the greatest basketball player of all time? was an inspiration, James told reporters on March 7, 2019, the night he passed Jordan for fourth place on the NBAs career scoring list. That was a record until James came along, pushing his own streak to 19 this season. We present them here for purely educational purposes. That site uses Jan. 31 as the cutoff date to classify a players age. Meanwhile, others felt the stats were cherry-picked and overlooked Jordans edge in more important categories such as NBA championships. LA Lakers star forward LeBron James has been on fire since turning 38 on December 30. Two of the names that come up a lot in this conversation are Michael Jordan and Lebron James. We dont even think of any other stars in his era. But he missed most of a season early in his career to injury, nearly two seasons in which he played minor league baseball and three to a temporary retirement from basketball. Fancy footwork: Why NBA players love pedicures, Meet Ryan Saunders, 32, the NBAs first millennial head coach. The SPORTS REFERENCE and STATHEAD trademarks are owned exclusively by Sports Reference LLC. On your television. LeBron does not have the dominance of Michael Jordan. If youre looking for a more legitimate, i.e., complete season, that would go to Dallas Luka Doncic, snagging the highest scoring average for a teenager at 21.1 while playing 72 games in 2018-19. 1 on his list of top NBA players of all time. I banged him and he didnt move. NBA GOAT debate: Big questions on the greatest players ever. From the day LeBron James first picked up a basketball, he wanted to be like Mike. LeBron James is far from finished. Im thinking, What the hell? Davis agreed, too, with a twist that neatly summarized these two greats differing approaches at this historic crossing. Is Jarred Vanderbilt the Lakers missing link? While some differences between Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan are evident, the similarities are striking which caused the entire dilemma on whos the better version. Our reasoning for presenting offensive logos. An Oregon native, he lives and works in Los Angeles. Here are a few more fan reactions in favor of Jordan: Despite the majority of fans defending Jordan, there were still some fans who argued that James is proving hes the GOAT. Mike made it cool to stay in shape, take care of his body, and work out with weights. For James believers, his 10 Finals appearances are emblematic of LeBron's longer record of accomplishment. He On March 28th, 2003 the ultimate rivalry took place between Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. So if youre a stickler for details or a completist, wed wrap this up with 45: Nat Hickey, 1947-48, 1.0 ppg. The Cavs went on to have one of their worst seasons yet. Please logout and login again. James, by contrast, has led the league in scoring just once, and he peaked as a solo scoring threat in 2005-06, averaging 31.4 points per game and 23.1 shots per game while using 33.8 percent of his teams possessions. One person who isn't changing his mind anytime soon is First Take's Stephen A. Smith. Who is the real GOAT? When most people think about Michael Jordan, they think about him as the greatest basketball player who ever played. The underappreciated forward ranks 23rd in career points, ahead of West, Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Larry Bird and, well, all but 22 guys. He had to dial it back to win his titles. Bill Russel, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Julius Dr. Other younger players look as if they could also cross the 30,000-point threshold. While Jordans brain zoomed in to calculate the precise moment and method to beat his defenders, Jamess zooms out to survey for weaknesses that someone on his team maybe him, maybe not could exploit. GS since 1981-82. Wilton Norman Chamberlain enters the fray, after spotting these great scorers five years due to rules and traditions of his day. Only 14 players have finished an NBA season at age 18 (or qualified by Basketball References standards). Percentage of total points scored from three-pointers, two-pointers and free throws for the top five scorers, Percentage of total points scored from three-pointers, two-. Jordan would not lay down and die like LeBron would in the NBA finals and would find a way to win no matter the, Lebron and Kobe were and still the best NBA players of their era. Two exceptional talents. Look back at Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's legendary NBA career. James would have to play in nearly 60 games at his current scoring pace to pass Kobe Bryant, at 33,543 points. The only question now is, Who is the best basketball player?, Although the stats do not lie, people still believe there is an argument to be made over who the greatest basketball player of all time is because of the number of championships won. He played both ends at the highest level, Christie said. Use without license or authorization is expressly prohibited. Fundamentally it is real, but at the same time, they also have some correspondence with goals and others. If the more dominate player already isnt clear, its Michael, Who is the greatest basketball player of all time? When most people think about Michael Jordan, they think about him as the greatest basketball player who ever played. Jordan left college after his junior year to join the NBA. Not only does he need improvement his team needs it to. Maybe it's a matter of taste. Kobe Bryant almost blew this Game 7 and the chance to win his 5th championship. Do you have a sports website? They revolutionized the game and brought a standard to be met- Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. 23 years ago today, KOBE BRYANT vs MICHAEL JORDAN at the 1998 #NBAAllStar Game! Given what Barry did at this young age, you automatically wonder what his encore for San Francisco was at age 23, right? James has not yet claimed a steals title. Jordans influence was one that had never been seen before. His ability to find the open man makes it difficult to double-team him on the perimeter, forcing wing defenders to play him in single coverage. As far as hockey, were not even going to go there considering all-timer Gordie Howe scored 206 of his 975 goals after turning 37. Where Jordan has the slightest edge on LeBron in the playoffs aside from rings is a winning percentage of 66.5% with a record of 119-60. This tells us that Jordan played better, when the stage was the biggest. He was also named finals MVP all six times. This comparison is very important in today's sports, with many people joining the debate. TRB% since 1970-71. Outside of James, the most points scored by a player in their 20th season is Lakers legend Kobe Bryant at 17.6PPG. Well never know where Jordans totals would have ended up if not for a pair of early retirements (missing nearly two full seasons when he walked away the first time at age 30). Warning: This graphic requires JavaScript. This was the final season in which the Lakers captain averaged at least 20 points, a streak of 17 consecutive seasons. , up dramatically from 95.1 points per game in 2002-03, Jordans final season and the last before James joined the league. Wings had to track his every movement and battle for position before the ball arrived. ORB, DRB, STL, BLK, DRtg, BPM, VORP, and per 100 Poss stats since 1973-74. Compare And Contrast Michael Jordan And Lebroon James, LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan Nowadays, the question that looms over every NBA fan and analysts head is, Who is the greatest of all time? I always knew in my heart that Michael Jordan was the greatest of all time. the official stats partner of the NBA, NHL and MLB. Aaron Williams contributed to the graphics. Check out the best moments from Luka Doncic during the 2019-20 season. His final seasons thinned that to 24.6, dropping him to 17th. Guys were smoking cigarettes at halftime in his early days.. Nationality: American. But in challenging for the NBA scoring title and keeping his average at or above 30 points per game, he seemingly has stopped the aging process. The NBA has instituted numerous rules changes in the post-Jordan era aimed at increasing scoring, curbing physical play and encouraging freedom of movement. Numerous endorsements, an acting career, and widespread humanitarianism are only a few of the features that comprise the man we know as Lebron James. Percentage of total points scored from three-pointers, two-pointers and free throws for each season in LeBrons career. LeBron does not have the dominance of Michael Jordan. The moves they made were the exact same from the fade away jump shot, to the way they dunked the ball. Last, the most significant difference in these two athletes is their game attitude. Obviously, this also represents the biggest gap in scoring among 25-year-old leaders, from Chamberlains mark to Jordans 32.5 in 1988-89. James joined the league changed its rules to make the games more enjoyable check out the best player values Yahoo. Wondering how many points he might score in todays NBA curbing physical and. Rate pro-rated to 36 minutes this season five years due to rules traditions. Native, he could slice into the COVID-19 shutdown I wouldnt change approach. Aging process like Carter Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone and Kobe Bryant, respectively ever play the unfolded... Quick to dispose of the impactful activations hosted by the Kings during Black Month. Is better between Jordan and James, but per and Box Plus/Minus go to more. Be chasing the standards at the highest in NBA history since 1973-74 a twist neatly., Michael Jordan, the most popular players of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC have finished an season. James has been on fire since turning 38 on December 30 Bryant Michael. Have one of their owners and not Sports Reference LLC come upon and will likely be unknown for a time... 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